These are my pieces...first keris was my first ebay purchase from a seller who in turn bought it from a flea market in Australia. Restoration done by Syukri of Terengganu with the supervison from Adni. Second piece was from Artzi...original pendokok was nailed to buah pinang of hulu and was removed and replaced although with a Melayu piece made in Kelantan. Did the rest personally.

You know earlier on at that forum there were experts preaching against buying from ebay...so contrary to their advise, I bought a few proving an expert's advise may not always be necessary good. But I have to thank Adni for much of his prior assistance. Nowadays there are many clever and experience collectors with sharp eyes and acumen...

Hanya Jauhari Kenal Manikam..

susah sy nak buat apa2 konklusi berdasarkan gambar saja..... cuma rasanya ini bilah samada riau atau trengganu....(lebih pd trengganu rasanya...)

BigG - Tks for the translation and even amplifying a little with Oriental Arms...good straighforward guy; I need to use a dictionary at times to translate although my broken Malay is so so...
Harizant - I guess it's difficult to pinpoint age although the file marks tend to suggest it was made when file tools were around, meaning it's not that old. There was also the tendency of some Western collectors coating blades with wax as was on this blade thus slowing down oxidation/aging. Also with good tender care from good collectors/museums, etc, I guess even a few hundred years from now, files marks such as this will almost be as visible...although some oxidation would be inevitable albeit minimally.

Translation;
Harizan - Saya rasa adalah amat sukar utk menentukan umur pada mata bilah ini. Saya rasa kesan kikiran itu boleh membuat kita andaikan yg kesan kikiran itu telah terjadi pada waktu adanya perkakas2 mengikir, maksudnya bilah ini tidaklah begitu lama umurnya. Akan tetapi ada kecondongan kolektor barat utk mengunakan wax untuk mengawetkan bilah dari kesan2 hakisan karat. Jadi kemungkinan proses ini telah memelihara kesan2 kikiran itu dari hilang...

Zainy, this may not necessarily be agreed by all...if you have been at the vikingsword forum, refer to the "What constitute a good keris 2" thread...look at some of the postings by WongDesa and Dave Henkel...I believe this was covered/discussed at some length.

translation;

Saya ada mengikuti diskusi di forum itu dan saya amat mnghormati buah pendapat peserta2nya terutama sekali Dave Henkel, tapai saya lebih condong pada apa yg telah zainamy nyatakan...

Kita sering lupa tentnag sudut pandangan Melayu di dlm kerisology. Asasnya pada hemat saya ialah mendulukan pandangan keris itu sebagai senjata lebih daripada fungsi yg lain. Bukannya tidak ada fungsi dan persimbolan lain... tapi lebih pada penilaian nya sebagai senjata yg melebihi dari sudut fungsi lain... Dari segi ini.. pnghasilan mata bilah yg ringan tapi utuh merupakan satu plus point yg amat dihargai dari sudut pertarungan... saya lebih condong pada pandangan ini..

ya harizant, saya ada satu keris jawa dapur tilam upih, yg besinya ringan dan nyaring bnyinya, telah berjasa yg saya dpt dari member forum ini...
masih tajam dan berbau harum melati solo, my fave utk bertikam, disimpan sebelah katil

setuju Tuannn...... alaahaiiiiii..... apalah nasib keris KK Kodian...hamba?..... huhuhuhu

Taming Sari (keris jawa) Hang Tuah's choice .. why not a Bugis keris?

susah juga kerana mungkin perkerisan bugis belum berkembang ketika itu (15 C)..... senjata tradisi bugis rasanya adalah alameng, sudanga dan juga badik.....

1stly, we have all heard of the evolution of the keris as a talismanic device that then grew into a utility weapon and finally to an artistic expression that culminates in the excellent e.gs that we see now in many Javanese and heavily Javanese influenced pcs.

Highly evolved asthetics exist in Malay & Buginese pcs of course, but when you observe the general form of Malay & Buginese pcs... the asthetic values doesnt seemed, at least in my eyes to overwhelm the general feel and look of the Keris as a weapon. This form and presence of the Keris as a weapon in Malay pcs appears to be given precedence over any asthetics when compared to a Kejawen pc. ie Madura, Javanese & Balinese pcs with their far more refine asthetic appearance that at times overwhlems the sheer "fighting" looks and feel of the pc. Malay pcs do have their own high standards of asthetics, but these asthetic factors do not cloud over the sheer brutal elegance of a Malay piece as that of a weapon.

My view is based on my own personal assesment of what I have seen to date bt also based on the appreciation of Malay pcs Keris collectors as well as non Malay pcs collectors. Iwas taken aback by some of the comments that I heard by Javanese Keris collectors of their views on Malay pcs... which they find to be Kasar.... Rough... or Tidak Halus... lacking in refinement... This is not merely I believe of the lack of refinement of its manufactuting but also of its robustness of appearance and presence that is suggestive of its basis of appreciation in form and substance as a weaapon fisrt and formost. Malay kerises as wth other types do serve different functions but... My own opinion is that generally speaking that the inherent basis of its construction and appreciation tends to be based on its value as a weapon or having the robustness and menacing elegance of a weapon 1st and formost.

As for frimness and strength... I I find that many older malay blades to be generally made of light but strong material when compared to newly made ones. A case in point are Malela blades... Genrally antique malela blade has a generally lighter feel to it then those of recent manufacture. This does not mean that all types of Malay blades are light... but my general supposition is that a light blade with inherent frimness to it serves well as a combat instrument then that whch is heavier...

a keris need not be thrusted full force, a mere several inch thrust is good enough to send your enemy to the otherside.

The lightweight but super sturdy of old malay and esp jawanese kerises is attributed to good choice of metal material, matang tempa among other things. The newly made malay keris thus IMHO is too heavy for its size' and doesnt make a good fighting weapon. If you are familiar with jawanese kerises from eras of majapahit, mataram senopaten, sultan agung etc, then you can feel the weapon side of these exquisite blades. Keris was one of the most famous weapons of the biggest empire in nusantara, and most of their adversaries use heavier longer weapons' but still majapahit could exert their control unstoppably.

If you were to ask me to choose a weapon to duel a sundang weilding opponent, i would easily choose a jawanese keris, tangguh from segaluh or majapahit or mataram senopaten or sultan agung.

Just my personal opinion.

hehehe.... unfortunately i'm not as skilled you might have thought, Johnny....;-)

and yes, any edged weapon is deadly in the hands of skilled exponent.... but keris is deadlier if you take into account the "myth" of poisonous and "powerful" blade....;-)

The round pesi is just as secure in the hilt as the rectangular one if its sealed using damar or jabung... and according to AG Maisey, if you were to remove the hilt by force, you will either break the hilt or the pesi itself... and not to worry about parrying heavier and longer weapons, keris is designed not to be parried with another weapon....

about the keris hilt designs, jawanese nunggak semi hilt is more suitable to fight in the open, whilst bugis pistol grip is more suitable to be used in a confined space, such as on board of a ship.....

What a combination......;-)

agree withthis point of view... unfortunately far too many ppl.. silat exponent themselves are not aware of this. ie my view that the silat expert is not necessarily someone with a sound and holistic understanding of the Keris...

Johnny, I was made to understand that most newly made malela keris, though lighter in weight, the blade was not tempered because the smith is afraid to risk / ruin the beautifully carved fullers - keris that is not tempered, in my opinion, is not that worthy to be made weapon - mostly wall hanger category. But well, its just my opinion....

cari saja keris Pattani awal....... atau yang dipanggil Pandai Saras??....

In general, we encourage members of YKS... to project their interest forward to encompass not only the Keris, but all aspects of the Heritage Weapons of the Nusantara region... including swords, spears and even firearms in the future... even to the traditional clothings etc... to better understand the culture itself and not merely the artifact...

for illustrations of the applications of the keris pls refer to my photo albums 96, 97 and 147 and also many video clips of silat melayu keris lok 9 posted on youtube...

you will see that the silat exponent makes use of all the sharp edges of the blade: the tip, the inside and outside flanks.. in addition what is seldom shown are that there are other sharp tips/edges such as the aring, the head of the hilt and also the rough pamor that can be used in hand-to-hand combat...

in short the keris has multiple ways of wounding and killing the adversary by thrusting, slicing, slashing, etc using the ingenuity and skills of the exponent.. during peace times it is an object of art to be admired but in war times the keris will rise to the occasion to do its inherent duty

yes harizant...bewitched by the looks
not forgetting the mysticism
like a snake, moments before the strike

I am posing a naive question to all readers: When did the Nusantara keris change from the old type light/thin/strong to newer heavy/solid/sturdy? or actually it has never changed, only preferences?
or is it due to the availability of different types of iron in the place of provenance?
or is it the preference of certain groups of people (commoners, royalty, Semenanjung, Bugis, Java)
or the availabilty of higher strength steel via trade with the Europeans

though stronger in composition, european steet doesnt feel "alive" - traditionalists will know what i mean....;-)

I've a number of Malay/Indonesian friends who subscribe along the lines you mentioned (if I understand you correctly) and I respect them all for their traditional beliefs, etc, etc...which also extend to yours and Zainamy's. However I would not call any new keris "heavy" or wallhangers, etc...for the reasons mooted earlier...the world is not static.

One more question for you Harizant - if I remember correctly, you once complimented/commended Tukang Rosdi for his skills with the saras and I understand noted pacik pacik, cgu cgu commission from him, including cgu Daud; do you also consider Rosdi's work as "cannot be called a keris"?

;-) Okay, now on the title Empu, Harizant...a title that seems so loosely used nowadays (don't you think so?) and are you aware where, how, to whom and from whom this title came to be bestowed? How did the Empu came out here to cgu Daud in Semananjung...no disrespect intended. Please enlightened.

John, when somebody self proclaim to be an empu keris, just ask him, how did he get it from? Yes, I agree, so many ppl claim to be an empu, but how many ppl can actually produce a proof of unbroken linage of the olden keris making ilmu?

John, by your own description, if only the title empu was only bestowed by the King, imagine only a handful of empu during Majapahit era as compared to how many thousands of kerises were made? They are empus whose title was 'nicnamed' to a simple village folk, because of his knowledge in kerissmithing.

Yes, Cikgu Daud commissions his "bakalan" from others such as Rosdi and a few more... the tukang balakan in Kelantan nowadays is akin to "panjak" in Jawa. So no problem with that... the most important thing is the blade was forged under "empu's" supervision, and the empu makes the final touch to the blade (incl spiritually).

And I also agree, the title empu is not that all important anymore, if the keris blade is forged using the correct traditional ilmu - ilmu that has unbroken linage.

No doubt some of the Madura pengrajins and Kelantan tukangs made some of the nicest blades, then again my question to you.... why a keris at all? What is a keris (to a Jawanese or a Malay or a Bugis or a Minang etc...)?

A keris without the real benefit / tuah / khasiat to its owner is akin to no keris at all.... if its only as a weapon, then he can always carry a knife or a golok....I cannot see any difference. I am talking about keris from traditional Jawanese/Malay points of view - its the view of keris culture itself. Those days, keris was not mere wall hangers, or collections.....keris was to be used physically and spiritually.

If you recall the story of Empu Gandring whose keris was even more powerful than the kerises made by kraton empu. A simple village empu who knew his trade perfectly well, and in the end sent Ken Arok to the throne

These pieces were once commissioned and worn by someone of stature in the Malay Archipelago.. although over time, through whatever reason, custodian of these pieces went abroad..

ya, yg penting bilah.. sarung boleh diperbaiki.. namun niat masing2 mengapa mengumpul keris..
------
yup, fittings can be re-made.. the blade, is the jewel.. however, the purpose of collecting remains personal..

zainamy's statement: imho, sometimes we'll have to look into the context of time and place, resources.. availability of iron during those periods, impurities, cost, workmanship, blade style, regional variances, adaptations, deterioration of blade over time and many more factors..

When talking about old, how old is old? perhaps we can talk in more specific terms.. discuss a specific blade form. Let's analyse and see what we can come out with..

salam..... perbincangan yang menarik...... mohon ikut bicara.....

seperti yang Tn. Harizan beri contoh.... begitu juga keris Taming Sari yang telah menjadi lagenda.... juga dikatakan dibuat oleh seorang pertapaan.... iaitu Taming Sari itu sendiri...

A good and interesting question.. Let's give it some thought, (legend aside).. if one is bestowed with a perceived powerful object of power (in one's own belief system), would you want to trade it for another? Furthermore, if it looked extra-ordinary (well-adorned) and feared by many, whether it does or doesn't have 'power'.. the stories in itself might have a psychological effect for a contender.. What do you think?

Ah, Shahrial, good to hear some perspectives from you...

Now back to bro Harizant...on the subject of Empu... In recent times, there were only 3 known empus (probably one or two more in Bali that cannot be verified) namely:
1. Empu Pauzan - who stopped keris making years ago and whose wife does some buying and selling of keris. I was told he found it hard to make a living making keris.
2. Empu Suparman - who died many years ago.
3. Empu Djeno - Who passed away not long ago and I believe few enthusiasts have met him in person.

It apprears there's no keris making tukang/pandai who has the authentic title empu today so goodluck to bro Zainamy ;-). Correct me if I'm wrong...

I personally would call a keris made by cgu Daud, tukang Rosdi and other noted tukangs a keris and fully respect those who collects for the traditional reasons mentioned by bro Harizant. In fact I like a number of my old keris for the same reasons. Also been told Rosdi makes the best saras in tanah Melayu... :-).

ada juga keris Jawa yg rapuh dan banyak lagi yg kukuh.. contoh yg masyhur dgn kekukuhannya, keris empu brajaguna (dan yg sewaktu dgnnya).. namun keris melayu pun apa kurangnya dari segi kekukuhan.. :)

seperti mana yg saya katakan.. keris Jawa beragam.. pada amnya kebanyakkan keris2 dari tangguh yg di tulis, bilahnya agak ringan kecuali Tuban dan sebahagian tangguh Cirebon yg agak lebih berat di bahagian pangkal.. yg molek, bila kita dapat pelajari dari contoh2 asli di tangan, melihat ciri2 dan diajar oleh yg arif, (yg mengajar dgn ikhlas).. bila kita meneliti keris2 tangguh Majapahit, apa yg dapat kita rasakan?

sorry, but i have to disagree with you John.....

You were referring to current era empus who either had died or stopped making kerises. To me, if someone is blessed with the skill to make keris beneficial to user, he's to be called an empu or a pandai keris at the very least. An empu title is not necessarily bestowed by the king, it can be inherited thru bloodlines and from empu guru to his students. But the title empu in my opinion is not important anymore.... if one feels that somebody makes a keris to his satisfaction, by all means, call him an empu or whatever. But remember, Cikgu Daud often tells this, "Keris Yg Baik adalah Keris Yg Bermanafaat Pada Pemiliknya".

However, my sincere advice to everyone planning to order a keris - in commissioning a keris, one should be choosy as there are many Tom, Dick and Harry out there make a living by making keris-like objects....;-)

And yes, Rosdi made some of the best pandai saras BLADE currently.

mohon bertanya..... apakah kriteria yang membolehkan seseorang itu digelar empu.... dalam pandangan perkerisan Melayu?..... bisa diterangkan akan kriteria2nya?....mohon pencerahan.

Well, in this forum we are all students...and to be fair - in the past, there isn't such thing as issuance of certificates, etc...but if someone tell you, someone's an empu, surely one should not accept at face value, agree?...and on point 2, do you have any references of this anywhere, books, publications? ...and who/on what circumstances was cgu Daud's preceding 9 generation of empu began, who gave initiated the honour? I understand students of Empu Djeno, Pauzan and Suparman are not empus by default and I'm not aware if there is this lineage of empus which passes on the title from master to disciple...and as I've said, we are here to learn...

I beg to differ.. I do agree the term used for no.1 is appropriate, a master smith appointed by the court, in line with the keris culture of Java but not point no.2. If strictly by lineage, the source master smith (empu) must be one of that had been appointed by the court.

I refer Cikgu Daud as "EMPU", and I will stand by my opinions. Yes, his title is not awarded by the king Jawa or Malaya or whatever, but his kerismaking ilmu has entitled him to be called "EMPU" by our circle - Perkerisan 7 beradik.

But before going any further, lets see what is the definition of "EMPU"
Please refer to Ensiklopledi keris by Bambang Harsrinuksmo page 154-155

as its in pdf format, i cant copy n paste the contents... but surely you have a copy;-)

PEACE

Thanks you for the book reference. However, a group standard is not necessarily shared and accepted as a national standard. One is entitled to ones own opinion. I've seen the quality workmanship of cikgu Daud pieces. Perhaps in the future would commission a custom-piece, god's willing.. :)

As I'm still a student and still learning, I would like to know, when in the malay peninsular the term empu is used? Is it a cross-migration from the javanese term or is it a common term used in the peninsular? From my understanding, the common term used in the Malay context is "pandai besi" (for higher skilled craftsman, including master craftman) and "tukang" (for general craftsman).

ic.. thanks for the response.. perhaps if its not too much to ask, where does the "ilmu keris 7 beradik" comes from in Cirebon?

Does this mean that there are cirebonese elements in keris made by cikgu Daud? or through time evolved into malay form, adjusting to the need of the people?

j'aime keris